Our great challenge isn’t to know who God truly is, it’s to simply know there is a God and we’re not Him. No. After all, the ability of human beings to be irrational is always amazing. Epicurus’s conclusion wasn’t “Why is there evil?” but “God, where are you?” And that’s where the flowchart goes all the way away from Epicurus. Not sure where the flowchart-maker got ’em. You cannot still exist in Hell and remove yourself from an omnipresent being whom you assert Hell is apart from. Aug 22, 2017 - This Pin was discovered by Steve Grove. And when you have a question with dozens of possible answers, you don’t use a flowchart! What is the Epicurean paradox, and how can it best be explained? We’d be a lot more wrathful, a lot less subtle, a lot less gracious. Proper flowcharts reduce questions to binaries: They’re questions which can only be answered with a yes or no, a true or false, or otherwise only two options. Go to #11. Lactantius attributes this trilemma to Epicurus in De Ira Dei: “God,” he says, “either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able.” (Genesis 2:10-15) He also gives rain and sunshine even to unrighteous ones. Go to # 14. Death will be undone. I mean, it appears to be when you believe God is good, God is mighty, and God intervenes: If that’s so, why isn’t he intervening? but then "free-will" doesn't mage sense to arrive at the left choice again. Which I’m now gonna quote from the Ante-Nicene Fathers translation, “A Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus,” ’cause I don’t feel like translating the whole of it. Re: The "Epicurean Paradox" December 16, 2011 07:27PM Moderator Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 48,855 Could you expound on that a tad more please, tuk? For all we know Epicurus didn’t even come up with it; it was a popular ancient meme with his name attached, much like the Prayer of St. Francis. Would it have been better for God to have created humans without freedom to choose/free will? The Epicurean Paradox of God. Messages: 1,288 Likes Received: 29 Best Answers: 0 Trophy Points: 110 #1. Go to # 27. Hope I find can bring strength and help us to live and believe things to work out, but it could be a mask for our stupidity when the truth is, you can’t fix what is beyond repair. But if you don’t believe God intervenes, or if you don’t think there’s any God there to intervene, the “paradox” simply explains the way the world works: God’s not part of the equation, so stop dwelling on it (or, for that matter, religion) and live your life. (2Peter 3:9) No. Lives of Eminent Philosophers, a compilation ofinformation on the lives and doctrines of the philosophers ofclassical Greece (see “Doxography of AncientPhilosophy”). I have presented the Epicurean paradox which I contend successfully negates the existence of God. One last comment: Meditation and Contemplation are tools we can utilize. (John 8:44). We can choose to believe in a living source within each of us that can grow and prosper even in times of utter desperation or live in the shadows that also draw us But after asking these three questions, it goes to “Then why is there Evil?” Which isn’t the question we put at the conclusion; it’s the very question we’re tackling. 22. The “Epicurean paradox” or “Riddle of Epicurus” is a version of the problem of evil. No. Our hope for our children to emerge victorious. On death. But Epicurus did not see this, nor did any other, that if evils are taken away, wisdom is in like manner taken away; and that no traces of virtue remain in man, the nature of which consists in enduring and overcoming the bitterness of evils. in the bottom left "could god have created a universe with free-will but without evil"? I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it predates Epicurus; somebody had to have thought of it before him. And therefore exists because of the good. “If we were not troubled by our suspicions of the phenomena of the sky and … Any reader of the OT will find that God did intervene often in the affairs of mankind. 250–325) quotes the paradox in his book De ira Dei/“On God’s Wrath,” in which he critiqued the non-foodie Epicureans of his day. Evil exists because God might want to vanquish it, and be able to vanquish it… but he simply doesn’t intervene. Our ability to care for ourselves in a healthy manner and see the good in things. Tears will be wiped away. 21. Any reader of the NT will find that God intervened in the most effective, dramatic and visible way by sending Jesus to earth. It is plain, therefore, that all things are proposed for the sake of man, as well evils as also goods. Not that you can’t quote it! Go to 16. One might reasonably have expected Him to have intervened during the massive slaughters of two world wars, but no. We much prefer vengeance. "Epicurean Paradox" (Or "Problem of Evil") God exists. 2. Yes. (Galacian 6:7,8; 2Chronicles 12:2,7,8) We can choose the endless void and play the victim. You just have to choose. Yes, then why is there evil? Block them all you wish; all I care about is whether you read the blog. Evil exist Yes, Can God prevent it? Yes. Would you like to be a robot, or loved by a robot? For on this account he does not take them away, because he at the same time gives wisdom, as I have shown; and there is more of goodness and pleasure in wisdom than of annoyance in evils. The "Epicurean Paradox" Posted by Ponderer . Plus ca change. Her name is Tiwilla Carr. Evil causes harm and suffering. Go to # 4. At the very end of God’s process, evil will be gone. Do you like to continue? Common sense, really, but then the “leadership” of the human race seems to has remarkably little of that. No harm no foul. Your email address will not be published. Hope more are enlightened. He has shown how this turning can be done. Get it as soon as Thu, Feb 4. Like the dark Christians love to point out, everybody deserves hell, and we’d happily, recklessly throw them all into it so we could get our way. Discover (and save!) Do you like to continue? Some scholars consider the epic poem De rerum natura (Latin for On the Nature of Things) by Lucretius to … Go to 21. Jesus Christ whom God sent ressurected the dead, cured diseases, and even stopped a stormy sea. Quotes of other bible texts are all copywritten by their respective owners. The Letter to Herodotus summarizes Epicurus’ phy… Therefore, unless we first know evil, we shall be unable to know good. He was the founder ancient Greek philosophical school of Epicureanism, whose main goal was to attain a happy, tranquil life, characterized by the absence of pain and fear, through the cultivation of friendship, freedom and an analyzed life.His metaphysics was generally materialistic, his Epistemology … Jesus Christ said that Satan caused the 1st evil. Do you believe this? 7. That’s the source of Faith to build on. Epicureanism and similar humanistic philosophies are what we have left to us. I studied logic, and of course we learned to make flowcharts. (1) The mind is a part of the body, and, just like other parts of … There is no paradox. Yes. No. Go to 3. Otherwise he’s gonna look at my every potential answer as me, sputtering out inadequate arguments because the world clearly doesn’t work like my religion teaches me. It would be impossible to love what is good unless one knew the difference between good and evil. So there’s this meme of the Epicurean Paradox on the internet, in which someone turned it into a flowchart. Re: The Epicurean Paradox. Hence, it still is conjuring a debate: whether God wishes to take away COVID, and is unable; or he is able, and unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, then why calls him God? Use of the Epicurean paradox an ancient Greek way of thinking that many pleasure seeking Romans adopted didn't do much for either civilization. God has proven again and again that he is patient, long suffering and desirous of man’s turning to him. (Matthew 5:45). Yes. It is a mistake to think that pure logic is the way to persuade someone that a god does or doesn't exist. We now have the start of a repeat, when moderation is out of the window, along with democracy and truth. Our choice is sure to follow. You can subscribe to our Atom feed here. (Levitucus 19:18) Go to 27. Go to # 23 That’s your choice. Believers and agnostics ask same as that of Epicurus. She has stage 4 breast cancer,spine cancer,cancer spots on her left lung and pelvic area,a tumor in her skull,and Degenerative bone disease.She needs all the support that you guys/girls are willing to give.Thank you for anything you can do to help.May God bless you all But no. The world has never been the same. Evil exist. In popular parlance, Epicureanism means devotion to pleasure, comfort, and high living. The world was thrown into turmoil by Hitler and the other fascists, and millions died defeating them. Go to 26. Go to 20. If you wanna sell it, I want a cut. God became man and lived with him. (John 17:3) For more information visit http://www.jw.org. No. The major source for Epicurean doctrine is Diogenes Laertius’third-century C.E. The millions of infected cases, death of many, and the numerous suffering people that are still in confinement nowadays are evidence that there is evil. So for Lactantius, God can but doesn’t want to, not because he’s evil, but because he’s gonna teach us to fight evil alongside him, and that’s good. ISK: 122.66m: 513,212: 59.01m: 482,027: 67.5: 100,261; Ships: 0: 100,433: 1: 139,541: 0.0: 100,261 If God used his power to know things in advance (omniscience) and prevent humans from committing evil everytime, then man’s freedom of choice/free will would be greatly impaired–thus making humans mere robots. I don’t care for its design, ’cause I’m a graphic artist and I can definitely make it easier to read and follow. The Epicurean Paradox part begins with the premise, “Evil Exists,” then asks, “Can God Prevent Evil?”, “Does God know about all the Evil?”, and “Does God want to prevent Evil?” These are not quite Epicurus’s questions; neither in Lactantius nor Hume’s versions. God’s promise to eliminate all evil in the future is recorded in Proverbs 2:21,22; and Revelations 21:2-4. What source allows us to learn and grow. of Friends of Epicurus, Letters on Epicurus: A Dialogue about Happiness. And he is not the owner of an oil well or a coal plant, complete with vested interests. This world has good in it. While not stopping all sorts of evil now, God does not allow his true followers to be tested by evil beyond what they can bear. FREE Shipping on orders over $25 shipped by Amazon. God will not be mocked. I like the way you presented it. The Bible based algorithm below solves/disputes the Epicurean Paradox (Jude 7) Original-language words link to the dictionaries at Blue Letter Bible. Go back to # 7. That’s all. Looks like yea: Like Hume, the person who created it doesn’t appear to have read the source of the paradox, ’cause it doesn’t end with “God, where are you?” It adds a few more steps. The Epicurean Paradox part begins with the premise, “Evil Exists,” then asks, “Can God Prevent Evil?”, “Does God know about all the Evil?”, and “Does God want to prevent Evil?” These are not quite Epicurus’s questions; neither in Lactantius nor Hume’s versions. Go to 27. Much like the ancient Romans would indiscriminately crucify everybody till they finally got peace. Robots/artificial intelligence do not have freedom to choose/ free will–except for their built in programs. (And not false binaries, where there’s actually a third option, but we neglected to include it ’cause we’re either being sloppy… or deceptive.) Yes. It’s a messy problem, and there’s no right answer. No. Epicureanism, in a strict sense, the philosophy taught by Epicurus (341–270 BCE). A choice exists for each of us to make sense of all that exists before us. That’s right: This isn’t open-source, use-as-you-please material. Required fields are marked *. (Genesis 3:1-5). To answer Epicurus, first I gotta show him God does so intervene. Did God cause the 1st evil (death of Adam & Eve)? What about the things larger than life itself. It’s not my answer, but it’s a darned good one. A reader wanted me to tackle the Epicurean Paradox, as it’s called. Neither should human beings fear death, and this for two principal reasons. Lactantius 13. A more permanent cure is coming. If if were so then you must accept the written word of all religions. Go to # 5. The key is to solve the Epicurean Paradox. Evil has a tendency to pop back up, time and time again. Epicureanism after Epicurus – The influence of Epicurus on Western thought, Epicurus and Politics: why I think he was wrong, Things You Should Never Post Online but Probably Do, Ways to Check If You’re Visiting a Safe Website, What Teens Shouldn’t Put in Their Social Media Profiles, International Soc. Are there any other reason/s why God would allow evil to exist for the time being? Everything evil did, will be undone. Those of us who trust him, know this era is coming. No. There are other issues that need time to be resolved why God allows evil to continue for a while: (a) the issue of whether a human is serving God only for selfish interest written in Job 1:6-12; (b) to give other humans a chance to turn around their lives and be reconciled with God. And of course let’s not forget Blogger, our webhost. The issue raised in Eden was: whether humans do not need God to tell them what is right or wrong. 1. Lactantius attributes this trilemma to Epicurus in De Ira Dei, 13, 20-21: God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. Go to 2. No. Those of us who don’t, are trying to create it already (and inadequately) through laws and peer pressure… and any other means than love. Epicurus (341 - 270 B.C.) It is never God’s will that man do evil. 16. there's one thing that bothers me with this flow chart. We’d smite evildoers harder. then is he impotent. You use a brainstorming chart. He is able, therefore, to take away evils; but he does not wish to do so, and yet he is not on that account envious. Is he both able and willing? Go to # 22. Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Saying the writings of a small group of people who also believed magic was real, witches existed, and the stars effected one’s life is not proof that a god intervened. And it often comes down to choices made by man. God made laws that if followed would have prevented evil. (Galacian 6:7) There is no actual paradox. (Revelations 5:9,10). Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Epicurean paradox: 29 ships destroyed and 32 ships lost. Knowing proof of faith can be as simple as acknowledging gravity. 3. Pingback: THE ORIGIN OF SIN AND WHO SATAN IS (PART III) – Priest ITM White. I will clarify it again through an explanation of the problem of evil by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Of course he does. Epicureanism continues to revive itself in the almost undeniable fact that there are many sufferings of humanity. All things will become new. (Unless you’re Am... A religion that’s a little of this, a little of that. In the ancient Greek story of the first woman,Pandora, we learn she opens all the plagues of the world, including the unbelieving deceitful hope. Your cheerful and positive conclusion, that “evil is eventually defeated, everywhere” is most heartening, but regretfully I do not agree with you. God gives comfort/hope to those suffering from evil. Impatient, they could not even wait for Moses to come off the mountain. (Not the ones you call biscuits.) Period. 25. Thanks for enlightening the people who interacted here. In his mercy and justice to humans he allowed Adam and Eve to have children. And if God is illogical he cannot be God, by definition. Go to # 27. So let's go back to the epicure in paradox and see if we can solve it now here it is in a flow chart for. 10. Is and was and is to come… Live simply with an attitude of Gratitude and you’ll be half way home before you know it…. -A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils. Go to 19 Yes. Not sure where the flowchart-maker got ’em. Faith exists and our gift of life is itself the light to follow. 17. Go to # 27. Their children, now imperfect, would have choices: to serve God/or not; to choose life or death. And if I were answering Epicurus directly, I’d have to deal with some other things first. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. 23. (Joshua 24:15; Deuteronomy 30:19). Just the same…. God is all knowing. 4.5 out of 5 stars 53. Very interested to see opinion on this one. Majority of those who truly love God will inherit paradise earth and live there forever. God gave the 1st humans an earthly paradise as home to widen and care for. BEGIN. Give him a stick and he will use it for bad or good. An issue of right to rule (sovereignty) was raised. It was instigated by a rebellious angel, Satan. You can look up this Epicurean Paradox flowchart in images on your computer search engine should you find this helpful. 11. If you don’t yet have a Kindle Paperwhite I highly recommend it. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, an epicure is a person who “appreciates fine food and drink”; this is the modern misinterpretation of Epicureanism, an ancient philosophy which does make pleasure the goal of life—but not sensual pleasures (sorry)—and incorporates a broad range of other philosophical positions—about the nature of reality, knowledge, society, and the gods, and a philosophy of how to live which goes well beyond “bottoms up!” Epicureanism is na… Epicureanism is a system of philosophy founded around 307 BC based upon the teachings of the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus.Epicureanism was originally a challenge to Platonism.Later its main opponent became Stoicism.. Go to # 6. How to use epicurean in a sentence. Leslie. This quotation does indeed bring “comfort and joy.”. This is THE CHRIST ALMIGHTY BLOG (for short, TXAB), and it’s copyright 2015-2021 K.W. Go to # 7. (Isaiah 41:3; 44:7,8) Would it have been better if he used this power to prevent evil? It is not Gods choice to live a dismal existence. He who 5. Would it have been better if God killed the first rebels–Satan, Adam & Eve started all over again? The love of our children. The beauty in nature itself. Learn how your comment data is processed. Quoting it without attribution is plagiarism. But enough with leaving you hanging, ’cause you probably want to know how I’d answer Epicurus. He provides escape so those who truly love him. But he has given man the will to choose. Time was needed to resolve this issue. God is Almighty. Are we taking the threat of China and its chief megalomaniac seriously enough? If he killed the first rebels, other intelligent beings–angels per Job 38:4,7–would have thought that the issue raised by Satan, and his human cohorts was true. Love itself proves Gods existence. And because we think we have a handle on God (and we don’t really) we project a lot of our motives and means upon him, and want him to get all wrathful and smitey like we would, and fret when he doesn’t. 6. whence then is evil? -God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good. Go to 16. Yes. Go to # 18. As for science, Epicurus was concerned only with the practical end in view. Would you like to use your freedom to choose/ free will to love God by obeying his laws (1John 5:3) ? He rescued his people – The Jews – only to have them turn their backs on him at the earliest sign of trouble. It goes up top! Yes. tuk22. But it’s an answer which won’t work at all for people who don’t believe in God, like Hume. We can choose to starve or grow in ways of faith and mercy. Lactantius 13.20-21. Go to 27. One of his earliest laws could have prevented death, the 1st evil. Epicureanism - Epicureanism - Doctrine of Epicurus: Philosophy was, for Epicurus, the art of living, and it aimed at the same time both to assure happiness and to supply means to achieve it. If he neither can nor wants to, he’s jealous and weak—therefore not God. If he wants to and can’t, he’s weak—which fails to describe God. But to answer Christians who wanna know why evil exists in a good God’s universe, here y’go: God wants to eliminate evil, and can. Finally, over millennia, it is possible to note that good has triumphed. Majority of humans have ignored God’s laws resulting in all sorts of evil. The Bible mentioned in Psalms that “man’s heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by drmike, Oct 21, 2007. Epicurus of Athens (341–270BC) was the founder of “the Garden,” a philosophy school. Anyway, the gist of it worked its way down to Scottish philosopher David Hume, who put it this way in his 1779 book Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion—placed in the mouth of his character Philo. Since creation, the devil has been trying to defeat God by offering mankind choices that are more comfortable. But don’t forget to peek at the feedback policy first. The flowchart-maker only provides us three options, and there are way more than just the three. Sending Jesus Christ is his ultimate intervention and this provided a lasting solution. Not surprisingly, the recent occurrence of this kind of natural evil that affected greatly ideologies and thus raises up again the epicurean paradox. Why evil? Go to 24. Read Romans 15:4; Psalm 65:2; 119:2,93, 105; 1Peter 5:6,7 Nothing lasts forever. -> yes -> then why didn't he. Over the centuries “epicurean” evolved into a synonym for “foodie,” which is weird ’cause Epicurus preferred simple meals. Quit prematurely freaking out about the End. The Epicurean Paradox is one of those quotes. In any event Christian philosopher Lucius Caecilius Firmianus Lactantius (ca. 26. I am posting the ancient epicurian paradox of God to see what others have to say about it. Does God know about all the evil? 24. In a broad sense, it is a system of ethics embracing every conception or form of life that can be traced to the principles of his philosophy. Yeah God gives choice, free will. My opponent has restated and even clarified the paradox. That’s illogical. Critique of Atheist propaganda as flowchart: Epicurean Paradox. 95. As a former Christian Fundamentalist I do rightly understand Epicurus. Ismael does research in Science, Arts and Theology. Credit where credit’s due: Bible translations are linked to Bible Gateway. (Genesis 3:1-6,19; John 8:44) After the rebellion in Eden, the Bible teaches that man caused evil to himself and others. Go to # 12. My answer definitely won’t work for ’em. Again, one might expect evidence of intervention at the present moment, with the planet in peril, with so-called “strong men” taking control over countries throughout the world, with inequality, mass migration, hunger, the breakdown of liberal democracy and the end of American hegemony, which did at least guarantee a measure of order. For ancient Israel he gave more than 600 laws. $17.95 $ 17. 19. To deny the existence of God is itself a dark place with little light to follow. You mean, how can we square God with the mystery of evil? It almost leaves me to wonder, why bother believing things to stay stable, when it only take a whiff of wind to topple our “peace”. Our problem, and the skeptics’ problem, is God isn’t eliminating it like we’d eliminate it, were we God. Warnings when persecution comes. was a Greek philosopher of the Hellenistic period. Yes. Evil is eventually defeated, everywhere. If possible, he would have done without it. The truth be told. Through the centuries there is no evidence of the intervention of God in human affairs. your own Pins on Pinterest (Matthew 5:5; Psalm 37:29). Functionally it’s the same as nontheism. The Epicurean paradox. Only 7 left in stock - order soon. You couldn't resolve the Epicurean paradox and now you're on the verge of creating another paradox depending on your theology and "interpretation of scripture". 8. So that God does not exist, and why posit any god? Go to # 6. I use various translations, and anything marked KWL means I translated it myself from various original texts; the Biblia Hebraica, Rahlf’s Septuagint, the Textus Receptus, the Nestle-Aland 28 or UBS 5, the Tyndale House NT, the Codex Sinaiticus or Vaticanus; yep I have a lot of Accordance modules. Go to #10. If you don’t recognise this then you Re making the same mistake as many did in the 1930s, to their horrific cost. The Epicurean Paradox is an interesting logical argument, but St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas have many interesting logical arguments on their side for the existence of God. God gave the devil a certain period of time to demonstrate his own government to see if it really is better than God's. The Epicurean Paradox: Why is there evil? Our growing ability to learn and develop our own existence. But if you do, do it accurately, in context, with proper attribution, and please link back to this site. So as if we are in a excruciatingly painful season of evil, like all seasons, it’ll pass eventually, if we hope and continue to live. Some writings by Epicurus have survived. Epicurean Non Slip Small 9.5" X 6" Food Prep Cutting and Bar Board with Juice Groove, Non-Porous, Thin, Knife Friendly, Dishwasher Safe, Made in USA. Life itself is our gift. I am courteous and therefore have to take your information as accurate, even if I have never seen such an assertion before. 14. Namely that Epicurus was deist: He believed in God (or, being an ancient Greek, gods), but believed they didn’t interact with humanity. 0. drmike Well-Known Member. Message List New Topic. (Genesis 2:16,17). That's a contradiction. European readers (and anyone else who cares): This website uses cookies. The present world is evil, and ruled by the evil one, Satan. Yes. Re: The "Epicurean Paradox" December 16, 2011 01:03AM God doesn't create evil, according to the Judeo/Christian belief, man was created in a state of perfection, yet man followed temptation away from God, sinned (i.e committed evil), and fell. Christian perfectionism and “Be perfect.”. 20. Man was also given free will and he can choose right or wrong. No. Evil exists to show the delight God and his created man may find in the alternatives to evil. But the way he’s chosen to defeat it is through love. Hume 10. It prefers self-interest, dubious dealings, lies, bullying and filling its own pockets at our expense. (b) love of fellow humans. He’s a materialist and empiricist; he believed the gods didn’t involve themselves in human affairs; he believed the purpose of philosophy was to promote peace and tranquility and alleviate suffering. then is he malevolent. The Christian/Muslim god is also the God of Judaism and is considered to be the original source of the "Christian/Muslim" god. -An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence. Millions have been calling upon Him for centuries, to no avail. Yes does God want to prevent evil? There does happen to be a response to the problem of evil - what is here framed as the Epicurean paradox - a response which I, as an atheist, find more palatable than most. Yeah, why not. 18. “Why is there evil?” is far from binary. 15. If God stops all sorts of evil in this present world, then he would be working for Satan as policeman, emergency relief worker, etc. A limited number will go to heaven and be kings/priests over the earth. Go to 24. The Principal of Light is the formation of positive value moving in the same direction. If he can and wants to, which is the only proper conclusion… God, where are you? Go to #10. The Epicurean paradox or riddle of Epicurus or Epicurus' trilemma is a version of the problem of evil. Or make sense of a world so in need of our proper order. Clearly Hume never read the source of the Epicurean Paradox, ’cause Lactantius actually does answer the old question. The Problem of Evil, or Epicurean Paradox, is the highest-value anti-theistic argument which is responsible, in whole or in part, for the majority of deconversions.In its simplest form, the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving god, such as the God of Abraham. He also destroyed the evil inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. He wrote more than 300 works on all sorts of subjects, but we only have three books and various random quotes. 9. We are left with the hope that more and more people will espouse the decent, humanistic ideas of Epicurus that stand for moderation, consideration for others, toleration, the search for peace of mind, friendship and caring for those less fortunate than ourselves.
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